Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to a special Devil's Advocate interview brought to you from Islamabad where Imran Khan is the politician everyone is talking about. After his rally in Lahore on the 30th of October, many are predicting he could be the next prime minister of Pakistan. In which case, how will he tackle the challenges he has to face? That's the key issue I shall discuss with Imran Khan today. Tomorrow in part 2 of this special interview I should talk to him about the relationship he wants with India. But tonight first, the challenge of ruling Pakistan.
Imran Khan, your autobiography published, which was published in September, ends with the words, "I feel Tehrik-e-Insaaf is the idea whose time has come. Last week you said to The Guardian, "we will not just win the elections, we will sweep them". What makes you so cocky and confident?
Imran Khan: Two things. One the electronic media in Pakistan. It has revolutionised Pakistan. The intellectuals here were not understanding the impact of this electronic media. Now what it has done is that it has raised the level of political awareness in Pakistan, which was unprecedented. Today, you have the most politically aware public in Pakistan. The most watched programmes are current-affairs programmes. So that's one and secondly it is Asif Zardari. What Asif Zardari has done is, he has basically exposed the true face of Pakistani politics. He basically bought everyone. He has co-octet the entire political class with him and he has taken them down with him.
Karan Thapar: Does this mean that whenever elections are held, Imran Khan will be the next prime minister of Pakistan?
Imran Khan: Well I have been predicting this for one year. It's not now. The rally was, what they saw in Lahore, was actually a culmination of the series of events that have led to this. And a year ago, I started noticing amongst the people that there was a change. And suddenly I saw the young people, for the first time in Pakistan, getting politicised. And no change can take place until the young get politicised. So young and the women are the two sections of the society that bring change.
Karan Thapar: You are attributing your popularity to the young and women but analysts like Ayesha Siddiqui and Nazam Sethi say that you have the silent but strong support of the Army. Are you General Kayani's preferred politician?
Imran Khan: These analysts or so called analysts. Do they know real Pakistan? I wonder that two names you have taken have they been in the public here? Do they know the real Pakistan, the common man, rickshaw driver, the shopkeeper? Do they even know them? Can they even speak their language?
Karan Thapar: But they may know the Army. The question here is are you General Kayani's preferred politician?
Imran Khan: First of all, people in this country have known me for 35 years. Have I ever been anyone's man? Has anyone ever controlled me? Have I got a price? Can anyone buy me? Can anyone tempt with me anything?
Karan Thapar: I will tell you why I asked the question. You've been upfront critical and vocal about politicians. You held them to blame for what you called them the peril and plight of Pakistan. But you aren't critical of the Army. And people say why he is not critical of the Army.
Imran Khan: People have short memories. Before 2008, when this civilian set up came up, I was the most critical opponent of the Army, General Musharraf. Just look back at the criticism. These politicians today were talking about it were petrified of the Army. I was the only one taking them on.
Karan Thapar: But you don't criticise General Kayani?
Imran Khan: Why should I criticise him when in a parliamentary democracy the prime minister is the head of the state. He has all the authority, he has all the responsibilities. If you have a train accident in India, do you criticise the train driver or you go for the minister?
Karan Thapar: One of the strongest points you make is one against corruption. The Army has a major role in Pakistan in corruption. But you don't say a word about Army's corruption.
Imran Khan:: But whose is responsible for the Army's corruption? The Prime Minister.
Karan Thapar: Aren't you exonerating exculpating the Army when you say that?
Imran Khan: But under General Musharraf I was criticising the corruption.
Karan Thapar: But now?
Imran Khan: Under General Musharraf there was a GHQ being built here, I was the first one who said this is a massive corruption going on. And it actually stopped because of me. Now, this is posed to be a democratic set up. Either they should say that they are not in-charge or they should resign. If they cannot be responsible for what is going on in Pakistan, they should resign. So, anyway, to blame the Army when you have Asif Zardari and Gilani having all the perks and privileges of power. So, what are they doing there?
Karan Thapar: Alright, you are not criticising the Army because you claim this is a democratic set up, the civilians should take the blame, but the truth is that on critical issues, the generals are hobbled civilian politicians whether it is defence related matters or it is relation with America or India, the Army calls the shots. Now if you become prime minister, will you accept a subordinate status on those issues or will you seek a better balance between civilian politicians and Army General?
Imran Khan: Well the truth is also that when Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was the prime minister, he sacked the Army chief, he sacked the air chief. He was a genuine leader, a prime minister.
Karan Thapar: Will Imran Khan as prime minister sack Kayani?
Imran Khan: No first of all, let me say that when you had a proper leader, he did that. And secondly, when the great Jinnah was in-charge, you could never imagine the Army ascertaining itself. What I am saying is we have non-leaders in Pakistan. These people are here to make money. They are not interested in governance. Karan, let me just go one step further. Balochistan is being handled by the Army. The entire FATA operation is being handled by the Army. No civilian input. SWAT today is controlled by the army. Karachi, these rangers are controlling Karachi. What is this government doing?
Karan Thapar: Absolutely this is why I asked, if Imran Khan becomes prime minister and it may happen if in 15 months people's speculation is to be believed, will you accept a subordinate status as Zardari and Gilani have been forced to accept, as Benazir and Nawaz had to do before that? Or will you have the courage and the strength to challenge General Kayani and the core commanders and insist on civilian supremacy?
Imran Khan: Karan, let me just make it clear. For me the office of prime minister holds nothing. Remember I am probably the only politician, who was offered to be the prime minister and refused. Now, unless I can implement my agenda, which means I take responsibility of everything that's happening in Pakistan. It means that the army is under me. It means the ISI can do nothing unless it reports to me. It means that the army budget is audited by a civilian set up. It means that I take responsibility of anything happening outside my country. It means that I take responsibility that no terrorism will take place from the Pakistani soil. Otherwise I would resign.
Karan Thapar: In a nutshell, what you are saying when and if Imran Khan becomes prime minister, he will be General Kayani's boss. He will be any and every army chief's boss.
Imran Khan: 100 per cent. I have never ever, ever, been controlled by anyone. The fact that the people would give me mandate to be the prime minister and I will not be someone's puppet. People know me here for 35 years. I have never been controlled by anyone.
Karan Thapar: Imran Khan, let's take a break on that point. When I come back I want to put you the very problem that you are going to tackle and how you proposed to do so. That's in a moment's time. See you after a break.
Karan Thapar: Welcome back to the special interview with Imran Khan, a man many predict to be the next prime minister of Pakistan. Imran Khan in your autobiography you say, 'mine is the only party that can get Pakistan out of its current desperate crisis'. What are the solutions you have in your mind for Pakistan's myriad and complex problem?
Imran Khan: Two basic problems of Pakistan. Unless any government resolves that it is unviable. Number one is tax collection. India has 18 per cent tax collection to GDP ratio. Pakistan has dropped to 8 per cent. We have one trillion rupees deficit. Unless someone has the ability to collect taxes, there is no question of making this kind of environment.
Karan Thapar: At the moment, 2.5 per cent of your population pay taxes. Can you take it up sufficiently and quickly enough to overcome the one trillion deficit?
Imran Khan: The reason is that none of the political leaders give taxes. All the political leaders' wealth is lying outside. They hide their wealth, they conceive their wealth. They don't declare their assets. They don't give taxes. Nawaz Sharif as prime minister gave Rs 5,000 crore as income tax. He is a billionaire in dollar terms.
Karan Thapar: But how you are going to force politicians, and not just politicians, how you are going to force businessmen, professionals and all the others who don't pay taxes. What you are going to do to make them pay taxes?
Imran Khan: Number one. Lead by example. Myself, my cabinet declare asset. We have already said that no one can control elections unless they declare their assets. And if we find any concealed assets they are disqualified. Number one, 'benami', means whether concealed their assets in other names, that will be outlawed. Number two. Any assets lying abroad, if they are not declared, it will be considered perjury, it will be prison sentence. So I am saying first the stick and then the carrot.
Karan Thapar: The problem is not just to make people to pay taxes, the problem is that you have the economy that is in the process of winding down if not unravelling. Your inflation is officially touching 12 per cent. Unofficially it is said it is twice or may be three times higher. Growth has fallen below 2.5 per cent. You have crippling power shortages and you have gone on record to say that you will stop US aid. How will you revive the economy? You can't do it simply on the back of more taxes.
Imran Khan: First of all, except for the martial plan, aid has solved any country's problem. All it does is props up crooks like our president here.
Karan Thapar: But martial plan is a great example that how aid can be properly used.
Imran Khan: But aid normally comes with strings attached. Aid normally stops you from making the reforms needed to structure your economy. What aid actually does is, it helps the crooked government and incompetent governments.
Karan Thapar: But in absence of aid, how would you revive the economy that is close to collapse, which is the true case in Pakistan?
Imran Khan: There is a one trillion rupee deficit. I guarantee you that we can collect 2 trillion rupees from Pakistanis.
Karan Thapar: How?
Imran Khan: Number one. Remove the exemptions. Because the rich has given themselves exemptions. Now just to give you an idea. Nawaz Sharif made a law where any remittances coming here were not tax free but no question asked. So that to whiten the black money. Number two. You have to give feeling to the people that their taxes are going to be spent on them. So, abolish all these symbols of extravagances, PM's houses, President, Governor houses.
Karan Thapar: How do you abolish them, you are going to demolish them?
Imran Khan: No, make them into educational institutions. Symbolically, we need education emergency in Pakistan. We have the whole plan.
Karan Thapar: But that won't revive the economy. It will tackle the education problem but it won't revive the economy.
Imran Khan: No, but what it will do is, it will inspire people to pay taxes. I get the highest donations in Pakistan every year. In one month, they gave me two billion rupee for the floods. Here is the country which gives highest per capita charity but the lowest taxes. Why? Because they don't trust the government.
Karan Thapar: Now, the point is that you are relying on the people, A be a inspire and may be you are inspirational and two, paying taxes on time and properly. Many people turnaround and say this is idealism to the point of simplicity.
Imran Khan: No. Hold on. I am idealistic, that's number one. Remember, I am the only politician, who people trust, who people give money to.
Karan Thapar: So when Imran Khan goes to tell pay taxes, people will. That's what you are telling me.
Imran Khan: No but you have to take a series of steps. In US, people don't pay taxes because they are more honest. It's a non-bailable offence. You get caught not paying taxes, you are going to jail. So you've to have two both. At the one stage inspire them and on the other make sure the top big fish who evade taxes go to jail.
Karan Thapar: Once again the time alone will tell whether this novel if not unique solution to Pakistan's economic problem deliver the good. The second problem you face, is perhaps bigger, is tackling terror. In your book you say that 90 per cent of militants in the tribal heartland are not terrorists. They either resent military intervention or US drone strikes. You say that 10 per cent that are perhaps terrorists can be isolated and negotiated. Will the Pakistan army accept the approach to the problem?
Imran Khan: You know, there was a meeting where we asked, there was a foreign charity called Reprieve, this is against drone attacks, human rights organisation. They came to Pakistan and they asked us to help them to get victims of drone attacks to come over to Pakistan. In Islamabad, we had a meeting. There were all tribal and elders from all tribal agencies sitting there. And I asked them two questions. Number one I asked them if there is collateral damage what would you do? With one voice they said, we would join the Taliban. Number two I asked if drones were stopped and if Pakistan army withdrew from those areas, would you be able to take care of terrorists? In voice they said, give us one month, we will get rid of terror.
Karan Thapar: But will the Pakistani army accept this approach to tackle terror? It's a question?
Imran Khan: Pakistan Army stuck there. General Kayani in the all-party conference said something very important. He said we're stuck in the tribal areas. He said 'we are only holding our positions. We need a political process now. Because we are struck, the moment we withdraw, the militants will come back'.
Karan Thapar: Today as we speak in Islamabad, the spokesman of the Tehrik-e-Taliban has officially said that you are the agent of West and they reject your overture. And you are attempting to negotiate with Taliban to bring them on line but they've rejected your overtures. So, to begin with your approach, forgive me, a kick in the teeth.
Imran Khan: Who is this spokesman of Taliban? There are about 30 taliban groups operating. My idea would not be to negotiate with any group. My idea would be to win the people of tribal areas to our side. And every poll and survey conducted in the tribal areas has said number one party is Tehrik-e-Insaaf.
Karan Thapar: Whether you talk about the economy or terror, and they are the two biggest challenges country face, it seems to me you are relying on your magnetism, your appeal and your ability to inspire. Are you overestimating the impact you personally will have?
Imran Khan: Well put it this way. As far as the economy goes, you have no choice but to collect taxes. Otherwise, we are gone. I am the only one people trust with their money. I collect more charity than anyone in Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: You really do believe in Imran Khan and his ability to succeed.
Imran Khan: 100 per cent. I know the people of this country. Secondly, about the tribal areas. I am probably the only politician who knows about the tribal areas. Because I did a travel twenty years back. The only way now is to win the people to you side to win this war. Otherwise it's a never ending quarrel.
Karan Thapar: My last question before I end this first interview. You're either are spot-on or you are being terribly arrogant about yourself. What you say to critics who say that he may believe in himself but it is not just that.
Imran Khan: Arrogance is the wrong word. Self belief is probably the correct word. Self belief, yes I have always had that. I always believed my party would one day win the election. In fact for the year, I have been saying what you are seeing right now. In India, I have given interviews that we will sweep the elections, when people laughed at me. About the solutions, no one has been consistently saying the same thing which I have been saying now. All the parties believe what I have said 7 years ago that there are no military solutions. Everyone accepts there is no military solution. So there is only a political solution left.
Karan Thapar: So you are positioning, I, Imran Khan, are the answer to the Pakistan's problems.
Imran Khan: Not because I am something brilliant. It is just because everyone else failed.
Karan Thapar: Let's end this particular interview. In part 2 of the special interview I want to talk to you about relationship you have with India. Will it be as novel and unique as your responses to the challenges of Pakistan. But for tonight goodbye, goodnight.
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