Here's the full transcript of the interview:
Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. How does Dinesh Trivedi emerge from the Railway Budget drama? That's the key issue I shall discus today with Dinesh Trivedi himself.
Mr Trivedi, let's start with your resignation. Twenty four hours before you resigned, you said you would only resign, if Mamata Banerjee asked you in writing. She didn't, but you still resigned. What made you change your mind?
Dinesh Trivedi: No, I must put it in proper perspective. Sudip Bandopadhyaya announced on the floor of the house that we are not asking for any resignation from Dinesh Trivedi as Rail Minister.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely right, but that was much earlier.
Dinesh Trivedi: No. One day earlier.
Karan Thapar: And then you said that I insist on letter from her in writing, but she never wrote to you.
Dinesh Trivedi: No, then Kalyan Bandopadhyaya rang me up, perhaps at his individual capacity. So I told him
there is a confusion because Bandopadhya mentioned on the floor of the House. Also I told him either you give me in writing or let the leaders speaks to me. Because I have fantastic relation with her and I have told her...
Karan Thapar: You said because of the confusion, you wanted it in writing but she never wrote to you.
Dinesh Trivedi: I said either you give me in writing or let her call me.
Karan Thapar: Did she then call you, which is your second option.
Dinesh Trivedi: We spoke to each other on phone because I didn't want to run away from my budget. Just consider the situation...
Karan Thapar: Let's just first clarify the situation about your resignation and the I will come to budget. You said you wanted one of two things, either a letter in writing or she should ring you?
Dinesh Trivedi :This is precisely I am trying to do, if you just have one minute's patience. I will tell you. I first of all told her even before I took over as Railway Minister. I told my leader, for whom I have greatest respect, that whenever you want my resignation for whatever be the reason, you just tell me and it will take me just ten seconds.
Karan Thapar: But it didn't, it took you four days.
Dinesh Trivedi: No, please understand, you are thinking of it took four days. No it didn't, it was just matter of one day.
Karan Thapar: She wanted you to resign on the 14th, you didn't resign till Sunday i.e. 18th.
Dinesh Trivedi: No on Friday whatever be the date. Sudip Bandopadhya spoke on the floor of the house. On Saturday, Kalyan rang me up.
Karan Thapar: And you still didn't resign?
Dinesh Trivedi: Please understand. Kalyan rang me up, okay. On Sunday, I resigned because I must have a communication.
Karan Thapar: Just answer that what was the communication you got, that what I am asking you. Did she tell you on the phone to resign?
Dinesh Trivedi: We spoke to each other on phone. Please understand...
Karan Thapar: No what does she say on the phone?
Dinesh Trivedi: Either you have the patience to listen the complete answer because in bits and pieces it gets escalated?
Karan Thapar: But the critical question I am asking, is that having 24 hour earlier said that you wanted a letter in writing before you resign...
Dinesh Trivedi: I said either, I have a communication from her and that communication could be a phone call. The reason... please understand.
Karan Thapar: When did that phone call happened?
Dinesh Trivedi: The reason, please understand.
Karan Thapar: No, no tell me when did the communication happened?
Dinesh Trivedi: Please understand, we are not sitting in a court room. The answer is very simple that I had a duty to perform. I had presented a budget which I had to defend. And it didn't take me ten seconds, I must have a proper communication because my leader never told me.
Karan Thapar: But I am asking you that question. When did that proper communication happen?
Dinesh Trivedi: It happened on Sunday evening.
Karan Thapar: And she asked you to resign?
Dinesh Trivedi: Yeah, I asked her. I phoned her up on my own.
Karan Thapar: And she said please resign?
Dinesh Trivedi: Yes, she told me 'Yes I wanted you to resign'. And it took me 10 seconds; I sent the email to the honourable Prime Minister.
Karan Thapar: Let me explain why I am raising this and why I am persisting with this. The reason is this, this is not only the apparent discrepancy about your resignation.
Dinesh Trivedi: There is no discrepancy at all, the whole world knows it.
Karan Thapar: Well the second discrepancy rises from the fact that on the day you presented the Railway Budget and when it became apparent that Mamata Banerjee didn't approve of it, you were asked repeatedly whether you were prepared to resign and your words were 'ishara kafi hai'.
Dinesh Trivedi: I didn't say 'ishara'.
Karan Thapar: You did, you said it on television 'ishara kafi hoga'.
Dinesh Trivedi: Where are you getting all these from? Karan, please get your facts correct.
Karan Thapar: You said it on television.
Dinesh Trivedi: There is nowhere I have said. Where you are getting all this from?
Karan Thapar: Your memory may be failing at this particular moment but you said on television 'ishara kafi hoga'. And the point I am making, although there were several 'isharas' you refuse to resign.
Dinesh Trivedi: Karan, first time I am seeing you, your facts are all wrong. I have not said any where. Karan, you are making a story that doesn't exist. This is the first time I am seeing... your facts are all cluttered up. What are you trying to get at?
Karan Thapar: That many people felt that you are deliberately delaying resigning because you hoped you might not have to.
Dinesh Trivedi: Nobody felt. You are only person who is trying to make people feel that. If Dinesh Trivedi didn't want to resign, Prime Minister of India would never ever have asked my resignation.
Karan Thapar: How do you know that?
Dinesh Trivedi: I know it with knowledge.
Karan Thapar: What knowledge?
Dinesh Trivedi: With knowledge, Prime Minister has gone on record, saying that he regretted my resignation.
Karan Thapar: But that doesn't mean, he would not have asked you to resign?
Dinesh Trivedi: Leave it to my knowledge, when I tell you trust me.
Karan Thapar: The reason I am asking is this is not the first time you have said it. In an interview to ANI on 21st you said "I was quite confident that the Prime Minister would never asked me for the resignation".
Dinesh Trivedi: I am still confident.
Karan Thapar: But what gives you that confidence?
Dinesh Trivedi: I don't have to talk about my private conversation with people, right.
Karan Thapar: You mean the PM??
Dinesh Trivedi: I have a right and I can tell you with all the confidence that the Prime Minister of India Dr Manmohan Singh would never ever have asked me for the resignation, because I know him very closely and that is why he mentioned what he mentioned on the floor of the House.
Karan Thapar: Are you actually saying to me even if Mamata Banerjee threatened to withdraw support...
Dinesh Trivedi: Even if Mamata Banerjee had suggested withdrawal, Prime Minister of India would never ever have asked me for resignation.
Karan Thapar: Mr Trivedi, are you saying that the Prime Minister would have preferred to retain you at the cost of losing Trinamool support and his government possibly collapsing?
Dinesh Trivedi: That is correct.
Karan Thapar: You really mean that?
Dinesh Trivedi: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Because people hearing you, will be flabbergasted?
Dinesh Trivedi: Why? It's a fact, when I realise and listen to this very carefully, it is very important for you and the people. I was absolutely confident because I was communicated that the Prime Minister of India will never ask for my resignation.
Karan Thapar: Who communicated this?
Dinesh Trivedi: Let's not get into the details.
Karan Thapar: Did it come from a reliable person?
Dinesh Trivedi: Aap ko aam se matlab hai ki guthali kinne se matlab hai?
Karan Thapar: But did the communication come from a reliable person?
Dinesh Trivedi: I am not going to talk about things at all, if I say something I stand by and I don't have to give you the detail.
Karan Thapar: So this communication came from a reliable person?
Dinesh Trivedi: Please understand, what I am telling is too important. I knew it too well that if Dinesh Trivedi didn't want to resign, Prime Minister of India would never have asked for my resignation. And that is why he mentioned two things - I regret Dinesh Trivedi going but at the same time, since it is the coalition dharma and that is why he has to go. I have also said that I am on record that I have resigned that my party had asked me to resign.
Karan Thapar: You said this may be three or four times, the reason I am flabbergasted and I use that word carefully is because Congress sources are saying actually you resign in the end because you got an indication either from the PM directly or the PMO that it was time to go.
Dinesh Trivedi: No. I think you are making that up. There is no way there is no indication from any quarters. And Congress party would never have asked neither the Prime Minister of India would have asked. And this is where I must tell you, if I didn't resign on that particular evening, I could have brought uncertainty to government itself. And that's not my job. My job is to listen to my party because my party had put me there as a minister. And the moment my leader told me, it didn't take me ten seconds, I said sent my resignation over email. And this might be the first time in the history of India somebody has resigned over email.
Karan Thapar: Let's move on beyond the extremely controversial statement that you made three or four times, that if you hadn't resigned the Prime Minister would not have asked you to resign, that he would have preferred you to stand by you even at the cost of losing Trinamool Congress support on his government possibly collapse?
Dinesh Trivedi: Probably. I can't tell you how the event would have unfolded. I can tell you for certain that the Prime Minister of India or may be the Congress party would never have asked for my resignation.
Karan Thapar: Hang on, when you say Congress party, you mean Sonia Gandhi?
Dinesh Trivedi: I don't get into personalities.
Karan Thapar: Okay let's move on beyond this. Let's come to the comments you have made after presenting the Rail Budget and before you resigned. Comments that many thought were deliberately designed to taunt and provoke Mamata. You publicly on record said that you have taken Railways out of the ICU, that's suggesting clearly that it was your predecessor Mamata Banerjee who put the Railway into ICU in the first place?
Dinesh Trivedi: No, if you have the patience of going though my speech on budget. My speech on budget had only talked about vision 2020.
Karan Thapar: I am talking about the comments you have made after the speech on television. You said it repeatedly, you can't deny it.
Dinesh Trivedi: Karan, it's become impossible to have this conversation if you keep on asking questions and don't have the patience to listen. Either you have the patience to listen because again I am not in a courtroom. Let's have a civilised conversation.
Karan Thapar: No you are not in a court room. But answer this, why did you say this?
Dinesh Trivedi: That's what I am answering. The entire speech was based on vision 2020.
Karan Thapar: But this is not in the speech?
Dinesh Trivedi: This is in the speech, you have not read the speech.
Karan Thapar: The ICU reference was made on the television.
Dinesh Trivedi: Please understand I am answering Karan, why are you so impatient? Vision 2020 talks about Rs 14 lakh crore and it is not Mamata Banerjee. If Mamata Banerjee have done given the vision 2020 which is a positive thing and in vision 2020 its takes about, a sum of Rs 14 lakh crore and she also talks if we do not have money, then there is a problem and I am also wanting the government of India.
Karan Thapar: You are not answering my question, you are filibustering?
Dinesh Trivedi: No I am not, I am just telling Rs 14 lakh crore, Mamata Banerjee also talk... and if I had not risen the fare and freight, then...
Karan Thapar: But I wasn't talking about, that's not my question. I asked you the simple question. You have said that "I have taken Railways out of ICU" and I said that you are clearly suggesting that Mamata, the predecessor has put it there. That's a slap in the Mamata's face.
Dinesh Trivedi: Mamata Banerjee came for last three, four five years but before...
Karan Thapar: Long enough to put the patient into ICU.
Dinesh Trivedi: Not at all, you are just putting words into my mouth. I know it's Devil's Advocate. So your job is to provoke me.
Karan Thapar: Forgive me, I have taken words out of your mouth, I am asking for the explanation from those words.
Dinesh Trivedi: Provoke me but I will not get provoked. But let me answer this...
Karan Thapar: You have been struggling for minute of two or three but you have not answering.
Dinesh Trivedi: You are not behaving like an anchor, you are behaving like an angry young man. You are trying to provoke me I will not get provoked.
Karan Thapar: You have been very clever in using epithets to try and evade.
Dinesh Trivedi: If I am clever then you are clever by...
Karan Thapar: But won't you answer the question?
Dinesh Trivedi: I am not going to get provoked because if you want to make any sense of this programme, you have to sell your shop. And I have to act like a responsible person and I am not going to give you irresponsible answer neither I am going into a trap of your breaking news or headline, that's your business. My business is to become a responsible person and you have no patience for my answer. My answer is, it was not Mamata Banerjee who had put the Railway into ICU, it was going on for last many many years. Mamata Banerjee gave Vision 2020 and I said by increasing the fare and the freight, the financial ICU I again say, it would have gone under financial ICU which I am going to take out, because I talked about operating ratio and the operating ratio was 95 per cent and I took the operating ratio to 95 per cent to 84.9 per cent and subsequently it would have gone to 74 per cent.
Karan Thapar: Dinesh Trivedi take a deep breath...
Dinesh Trivedi: You are not interested in answers, you are only interested in provocation and I will not get provoked, I will answer the questions to the best of my abilities. You have a job to sell your programme and I have a job to answer the factual things. So if you want to curtail my answer then there is nothing I can do about it.
Karan Thapar: You didn't say Mamata Banerjee had not put it into the ICU. You said it was in ICU before that?
Dinesh Trivedi: Of course.
Karan Thapar: So the clear implication that the Mamata Banerjee who was minister for two or three years, failed to take out of ICU, that's as damning.
Dinesh Trivedi: That is the way as you look at it because again you want to provoke.
Karan Thapar: That's the logic of it.
Dinesh Trivedi: No that is not logic.
Karan Thapar: What about your second statement that the Railway Budget isn't written in Writers Building, another slap in the face.
Dinesh Trivedi: I never said that.
Karan Thapar: You said it on television. You are forgetting lot of things that you said on television
Dinesh Trivedi: I never said that if you only have patience. What I said when people asked me, it was a wrong impression that the Mamata Banerjee used to interfere, when the Railway Budget run by the Writers Building, it was a wrong impression. So I was taking something positive but you want to convert that into negative which was not. Please understand, you also have some responsibility and you cannot digress from facts which you are trying to do. Let me repeat what I said that the impression that people had was wrong. Mamata Banerjee had never ever interfered in Railways.
Karan Thapar: Let's come to a different issue, you have repeatedly said on the television that you shared the broad thrust of the Railway Budget with a bureaucrat close to Mamata. Why did you not share it with Mamata herself?
Dinesh Trivedi: But that's my prerogative.
Karan Thapar: Have one second, if the idea is to make Mamata aware of broad thrust, why not to tell her directly?
Dinesh Trivedi: This is my prerogative.
Karan Thapar: Did you check with the bureaucrat whether he had shared these details with Mamata?
Dinesh Trivedi: I don't have to tell you about the internal affairs of my party. I am a disciplined soldier and I don't need to tell that to you as to what is the methodology. I do thing in my way and you do things on your own way.
Karan Thapar: Now hang on a moment. The reason I am asking you because the answer that you had shared the broad thrust with the bureaucrats, was given by you in response to questions "Was Mamata aware of the broad thrust?" and you said, "Yes, I shared it to the bureaucrats". Now you are saying to me...
Dinesh Trivedi: No my answer was very clear then. I still say whether the bureucrats still shares with Mamata Banerjee, I don't know.
Karan Thapar: Why don't you shared it directly?
Dinesh Trivedi: But that's my way of doing things.
Karan Thapar: It's almost if you deliberately didn't want to and you now finding excuse for not doing so.
Dinesh Trivedi: I don't have to so things in your way, I have to do things in my way.
Karan Thapar: But as a result of which you failed to keep your party leader informed of the broad thrust, knowing that she would object severely to price increase. Was that not irresponsible of you?
Dinesh Trivedi: But that's my way of doing things.
Karan Thapar: You mean you are irresponsible?
Dinesh Trivedi: No, my way of doing things, was to inform by the proper channel and that I thought was the proper channel.
Karan Thapar: And surely the proper channel was to inform her directly.
Dinesh Trivedi: But you know my saying is, whatever question you are asking is a very irresponsible way of asking question but that's your way of asking question. I don't have to question your way and you don't need to question my ways.
Karan Thapar: The point I am simply making is this, you knew in advance that the Mamata Banerjee rejected the price increases and you failed to consult and inform her.
Dinesh Trivedi: The point you are trying to make is, your programme says Devil's Advocate and you are trying to provoke me and I will repeat the tenth time, I will not get provoked.
Karan Thapar: Was the Congress party, Prime Minister and Pranab Mukherjee aware that Mamata had not been informed by you directly about price increases. Were they aware of that?
Dinesh Trivedi: I don't really have to answer all these things which are in the domain of governance. There are certain things which are in the discipline, there are certain things which I am under oath and I am so irresponsible to answer those questions.
Karan Thapar: But the impression you are clearly leaving the people's mind, you could have taken steps to inform Mamata, you deliberately and consciously chosen not to and that is irresponsible.
Dinesh Trivedi: Not people's mind, you are not people and as far as people are concerned, they know what exactly I have done.
Karan Thapar: People are probably going to think the same thing, I am asking you now.
Dinesh Trivedi: People are absolutely aware of what I have done. If you want to create confusion, then you are at liberty.
Karan Thapar: My last question. Senior journalists on television have questioned why you chose to commit political suicide over the budget. They ask, was there some sort of secret understanding or deal with the Congress we don't know about. Did he get lured by Congress in some way to present the budget he did. What's your answer?
Dinesh Trivedi: I have not listened to these kinds of things, as for as I am concerned I did what is good for the country and Railways. And given a choice and a chance I will do exactly the same all over again.
Karan Thapar: But did you have a deal or understanding with the Congress?
Dinesh Trivedi: If you are going to see a snake in a rope then I think you required a psychiatrist because there was no such deal. And there is no indication of such deal and please understand Karan I am not in politics for deals, I am in politics for conviction. And I don't get in these kinds of imperious, sometimes you read more than what it is and like I said, if you see snake in a rope then you required psychiatrist.
Karan Thapar: My last question. Could you end up joining the Congress party?
Dinesh Trivedi: I take life as it comes and politics for me is not a career.
Karan Thapar: That's sounds like a yes.
Dinesh Trivedi: That's for you to understand, politics is not a career. You can think whatever you want to think but that is not necessary the way I think
Karan Thapar: The interesting thing is you didn't say of course not. You have left a door open.
Dinesh Trivedi: You can say whatever you want to say, you have liberty because you are free citizen of India. Right.
Karan Thapar: Dinesh Trivedi, a pleasure talking to you.
Dinesh Trivedi: Thank you.
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